I saw today a game on cyberoro betwen Lee ChangHo 9p (Black) and Chang Hao 9p and it was draw :] do any one know what a sort of competition it was?
[sgf]
(;B[qd]CR[qd]
;W[dc]CR[dc]
;B[pp]CR[pp]
;W[dp]CR[dp]
;B[de]CR[de]
;W[od]CR[od]
;B[fd]CR[fd]
;W[pf]CR[pf]
;B[oc]CR[oc]
;W[nc]CR[nc]
;B[pc]CR[pc]
;W[nd]CR[nd]
;B[eb]CR[eb]
;W[re]CR[re]
;B[rd]CR[rd]
;W[qn]CR[qn]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[be]CR[be]
;B[cd]CR[cd]
;W[ci]CR[ci]
;B[jd]CR[jd]
;W[pk]CR[pk]
;B[cn]CR[cn]
;W[co]CR[co]
;B[dn]CR[dn]
;W[fq]CR[fq]
;B[ck]CR[ck]
;W[bd]CR[bd]
;B[cc]CR[cc]
;W[df]CR[df]
;B[ef]CR[ef]
;W[ce]CR[ce]
;B[dd]CR[dd]
;W[dg]CR[dg]
;B[cq]CR[cq]
;W[bo]CR[bo]
;B[er]CR[er]
;W[eq]CR[eq]
;B[dq]CR[dq]
;W[fr]CR[fr]
;B[ep]CR[ep]
;W[bn]CR[bn]
;B[bm]CR[bm]
;W[do]CR[do]
;B[eo]CR[eo]
;W[cm]CR[cm]
;B[dm]CR[dm]
;W[cl]CR[cl]
;B[bl]CR[bl]
;W[en]CR[en]
;B[em]CR[em]
;W[fn]CR[fn]
;B[qi]CR[qi]
;W[ph]CR[ph]
;B[bp]CR[bp]
;W[fo]CR[fo]
;B[kq]CR[kq]
;W[pi]CR[pi]
;B[qo]CR[qo]
;W[rn]CR[rn]
;B[rf]CR[rf]
;W[rg]CR[rg]
;B[qf]CR[qf]
;W[qg]CR[qg]
;B[pe]CR[pe]
;W[sf]CR[sf]
;B[qe]CR[qe]
;W[of]CR[of]
;B[ld]CR[ld]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[mp]CR[mp]
;W[np]CR[np]
;B[mr]CR[mr]
;W[oq]CR[oq]
;B[lq]CR[lq]
;W[op]CR[op]
;B[pn]CR[pn]
;W[pm]CR[pm]
;B[on]CR[on]
;W[nr]CR[nr]
;B[mo]CR[mo]
;W[qq]CR[qq]
;B[ro]CR[ro]
;W[qm]CR[qm]
;B[or]CR[or]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[pq]CR[pq]
;W[pr]CR[pr]
;B[qr]CR[qr]
;W[os]CR[os]
;B[rq]CR[rq]
;W[lr]CR[lr]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[rr]CR[rr]
;B[qs]CR[qs]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[oe]CR[oe]
;W[ne]CR[ne]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[sq]CR[sq]
;B[qp]CR[qp]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mf]CR[mf]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[ie]CR[ie]
;B[di]CR[di]
;W[dj]CR[dj]
;B[cj]CR[cj]
;W[ei]CR[ei]
;B[dh]CR[dh]
;W[ch]CR[ch]
;B[eh]CR[eh]
;W[eg]CR[eg]
;B[fh]CR[fh]
;W[fg]CR[fg]
;B[gg]CR[gg]
;W[ff]CR[ff]
;B[kr]CR[kr]
;W[id]CR[id]
;B[ic]CR[ic]
;W[hc]CR[hc]
;B[hb]CR[hb]
;W[ej]CR[ej]
;B[gh]CR[gh]
;W[gj]CR[gj]
;B[gf]CR[gf]
;W[bj]CR[bj]
;B[cg]CR[cg]
;W[cf]CR[cf]
;B[bk]CR[bk]
;W[bi]CR[bi]
;B[bg]CR[bg]
;W[bh]CR[bh]
;B[gl]CR[gl]
;W[gi]CR[gi]
;B[fm]CR[fm]
;W[ge]CR[ge]
;B[ih]CR[ih]
;W[ij]CR[ij]
;B[je]CR[je]
;W[fe]CR[fe]
;B[jf]CR[jf]
;W[il]CR[il]
;B[hk]CR[hk]
;W[ii]CR[ii]
;B[ik]CR[ik]
;W[jk]CR[jk]
;B[jl]CR[jl]
;W[jh]CR[jh]
;B[kh]CR[kh]
;W[jg]CR[jg]
;B[if]CR[if]
;W[im]CR[im]
;B[kg]CR[kg]
;W[ki]CR[ki]
;B[kk]CR[kk]
;W[jj]CR[jj]
;B[gn]CR[gn]
;W[kl]CR[kl]
;B[jm]CR[jm]
;W[in]CR[in]
;B[km]CR[km]
;W[go]CR[go]
;B[hn]CR[hn]
;W[ho]CR[ho]
;B[io]CR[io]
;W[jn]CR[jn]
;B[gk]CR[gk]
;W[jp]CR[jp]
;B[mh]CR[mh]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ko]CR[ko]
;W[jo]CR[jo]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[ip]CR[ip]
;B[ll]CR[ll]
;W[ig]CR[ig]
;B[aj]CR[aj]
;W[ag]CR[ag]
;B[br]CR[br]
;W[dr]CR[dr]
;B[cr]CR[cr]
;W[es]CR[es]
;B[an]CR[an]
;W[ao]CR[ao]
;B[ap]CR[ap]
;W[fp]CR[fp]
;B[fk]CR[fk]
;W[ib]CR[ib]
;B[hj]CR[hj]
;W[hi]CR[hi]
;B[jc]CR[jc]
;W[gb]CR[gb]
;B[hd]CR[hd]
;W[he]CR[he]
;B[hf]CR[hf]
;W[gd]CR[gd]
;B[li]CR[li]
;W[bb]CR[bb]
;B[jb]CR[jb]
;W[ha]CR[ha]
;B[sn]CR[sn]
;W[sm]CR[sm]
;B[so]CR[so]
;W[kp]CR[kp]
;B[lp]CR[lp]
;W[lm]CR[lm]
;B[kn]CR[kn]
;W[kj]CR[kj]
;B[hh]CR[hh]
;W[lj]CR[lj]
;B[mj]CR[mj]
;W[mk]CR[mk]
;B[lk]CR[lk]
;W[ml]CR[ml]
;B[kl]CR[kl]
;W[nj]CR[nj]
;B[mi]CR[mi]
;W[mn]CR[mn]
;B[lo]CR[lo]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[nb]CR[nb]
;W[mb]CR[mb]
;B[ob]CR[ob]
;W[lc]CR[lc]
;B[nm]CR[nm]
;W[mm]CR[mm]
;B[nn]CR[nn]
;W[nl]CR[nl]
;B[se]CR[se]
;W[sg]CR[sg]
;B[ni]CR[ni]
;W[oj]CR[oj]
;B[hr]CR[hr]
;W[jq]CR[jq]
;B[jr]CR[jr]
;W[hq]CR[hq]
;B[is]CR[is]
;W[gr]CR[gr]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[qb]CR[qb]
;B[qc]CR[qc]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[bc]CR[bc]
;W[ac]CR[ac]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[cp]CR[cp]
;B[aq]CR[aq]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[ab]CR[ab]
;W[aa]CR[aa]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[lg]CR[lg]
;B[lf]CR[lf]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[mg]CR[mg]
;W[le]CR[le]
;B[lh]CR[lh]
;W[kd]CR[kd]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[ke]CR[ke]
;B[kf]CR[kf]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[kc]CR[kc]
;W[md]CR[md]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[hl]CR[hl]
;B[gm]CR[gm]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[ad]CR[ad]
;W[ae]CR[ae]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[dl]CR[dl]
;B[dk]CR[dk]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[ba]CR[ba]
;W[ca]CR[ca]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[rp]CR[rp]
;B[sp]CR[sp]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[rm]CR[rm]
;W[rl]CR[rl]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[ar]CR[ar]
;B[as]CR[as]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[ai]CR[ai]
;W[bf]CR[bf]
;B[iq]CR[iq]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ls]CR[ls]
;W[ir]CR[ir]
;B[oh]CR[oh]
;W[hs]CR[hs]
;B[og]CR[og]
;W[pg]CR[pg]
;B[js]CR[js]
;W[om]CR[om]
;B[lb]CR[lb]
;W[la]CR[la]
;B[kb]CR[kb]
;W[am]CR[am]
;B[na]CR[na]
;W[ma]CR[ma]
;B[cs]CR[cs]
;W[ds]CR[ds]
;B[ek]CR[ek]
;W[no]CR[no]
;B[po]CR[po]
;W[oi]CR[oi]
;B[nh]CR[nh]
;W[ia]CR[ia]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ol]CR[ol]
;W[nk]CR[nk]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ns]CR[ns]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ka]CR[ka]
;W[mc]CR[mc]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ak]CR[ak]
;W[ah]CR[ah]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ns]CR[ns]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ja]CR[ja]
;W[hm]CR[hm]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[ga]CR[ga]
;W[fa]CR[fa]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ns]CR[ns]
;W[ln]CR[ln]
;B[al]CR[al]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[an]CR[an]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[am]CR[am]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ns]CR[ns]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[an]CR[an]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq]
;W[am]CR[am]
;B[nf]CR[nf]
;W[mq]CR[mq]
;B[ns]CR[ns]
;W[ng]CR[ng]
;B[an]CR[an]
;W[ms]CR[ms]
;B[nq]CR[nq])
[/sgf]
I have read the article on
I have read the article on http://www.baduk.or.kr/news/homenews_view.asp?gul_no=507249&gdiv=1&frpg=...
They said, that Lee was not sure about the balance, because they were playing Chinese rules, with no prisoners.
So, he decided to make a draw. The time control was 50 min each, no byoyomi. Lee was keeping 5 min. on his clock, while Chang Hao had 2-3 min only. The reporter asked Lee : "Was it possible to continue the game and win on time?"
Lee answered, that if the game is important, he would play like this, but not in this case (friendship match)
I found one pciture online
I found one pciture online showing the board. The 'stones' are said to be trainees from ShaoLin Temple, who practice Chinese Kung Fu on the board
The legs of Japanese style
The legs of Japanese style floor boards are removable. My guess is that they just took the legs off. The NHK TV station in Japan also has a Go board in a western style table, but they opened a hole in the table and have the board standing inside it!
Lee could have conceded both
Lee could have conceded both kos and still won by a large margin, I think about 13 pts on the board, or 6.5 stones in the Chinese system. Since the game was Chinese rules, it would have been better for him to connect the double ko inside Black's territory, and then win one of the remaining kos as Black had more ko threats.
It is a mystery if or not
It is a mystery if or not Lee planned a draw.
Two prevalent theories:
1. As he said after the match, Lee was confused about the final tally due to the fact that they were running out the stones and had to grab the prisoners to play on. In the Chinese rules, this would not matter. However, being used to the Korean/Japanese rules, Lee lost the track of the prisoners. Instead of risking an embarassing defeat, Lee offered a draw.
2. Lee and Chang are very good friends, but Lee is far ahead by the record of 20 wins and 5 losses in their official matches including some heartbreaking losses for Chang. Well behind in the match, Chang desperately hung on, albeit the friendly nature of the match. Lee simply did not want to break once again the heart of his friend's unnecessarily and chose not to concede the kos even though he knew he would still be ahead. He took the excuse of the kos and offered the draw despite the advice of Mr. Wang who is the head of the Chinese Weiqi Association.
Which one is right? Nobody seems to know for sure. However, considering the track record of Lee's friendly matches, most notably the draw with Mao Jiajun, and considering that his ability to calculate even miniscure points, most including Chinese players tend to lean toward the latter theory. Some Chinese fans even criticized Chang for not resigning.
Lee is peculiar in his friendly matches. Against Yoda Norimoto, Lee played fuseki including the tengen, which would be out of the question in any competitive matches. Lee appears less concerned about the result on friendly matches.
1. As he said after the
1. As he said after the match, Lee was confused about the final tally due to the fact that they were running out the stones and had to grab the prisoners to play on. In the Chinese rules, this would not matter. However, being used to the Korean/Japanese rules, Lee lost the track of the prisoners. Instead of risking an embarassing defeat, Lee offered a draw.
This is an interesting idea. However at the end of this game, there were 52 dead black and 42 dead white stone. Even they were all left on the table, I doubt that players need to count them to make judgement. I think pro players simply remember where the dead stones are. In case of ko fight, they only need to remember who start the ko and then compare the start position to the end position.
I do not believe that Lee
I do not believe that Lee Changho indeed got confused about the number of dead stones although he was time contrained for the match. Nevertheless, the account was hinted by Lee, himself.
The only reason I am not trying to wholeheartedly discredit it as a face saving comment is that Lee has shown lapses in unimaginable ways before. For instance, he could not remember and replay his most recent games while studying under Cho. When he was asked for a comment looking at a game record a couple of years ago, he simply said that it was too confusing.
Yet, I do believe, as do many fans, that Lee's account is not the whole story, which is why I put it as a theory. :o)
Even an amateur like me
Even an amateur like me looking at the board for 1 minute knows that b has won for sure... Well, being on the top for so long, I think the last thing Lee wants or needs is a win that means nothing to him but hurt bunch of people's faces. If I were him, wouldn't be happier for a chance to draw, and definitely won't admit the real reason. It is a win for everyone.
1. On top of the guarantee
1. On top of the guarantee of 10,000 USD for each participant, the additional prize money for the winner was 10,000 USD for the match (the winner would take 20,000 USD). The prize money could be a motivational factor for victory but would have been relatively insignificant to Lee (Lee played tengen in fuseki against Yoda Norimoto in an event match despite the considerably more amount of prize money for the winner -- he eventually beat Yoda in the game). Probably, he earns enough income to consider 10,000 USD as a non-factor. He once said something in the line that money should not be the most important factor in Go. So....
2. The last time Lee played Chang was in the most recent Chunlan Cup, and Lee won. Chang reportedly had teary eyes in front of Lee in the post game review as he was ahead during the whole game until one Myoshu by Lee in the last minute decisively turned the tide (Chang resigned shortly after that move). That is just one of the examples of Chang's show emotional reactions after defeats by Lee. It is very understandable. Chang Hao was arguably one of the top three players in the world, at least top five for sure, from the late 90's through the early millenium. Lee Changho had been the obstacle he could not overcome in order to reach the very top. Naturally, Chang has invested so much in coping with Lee and takes most seriously any game with him. Every defeat by Lee must have been so much worse than any other defeats. Lee must have known that.
As I stated, I subscribe to the sympathy theory. But, it was my mistake to compare the match to that with Mao Jiajun as the Mao match was purely for "display" with no prize money involved whatsoever and was a friendly match in a purest sense. However, in more proper context, the match with Chang Hao was a lot more than "friendly" in nature as was the aforementioned match with Yoda. It was not a "title match" officially sanctioned by the Chinese Weiqi Association. Nonetheless, it was not a friendly match, either. Lack of a better term, I would call it "unofficial title match." I am pretty sure that Lee would have concluded the game far differently by resolving the kos (though he would not have used the clock to win) if the opponent were someone other than Chang Hao.
I am sorry for my mistakes in the earlier posts of defining it as a friendly match and comparing it with the Mao match. The mistake might have added more confusion in this thread.