I was wondering who is the best Go player in the world and how many stone difference are there between a 9p and a 1p?
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Who is the best go player in the world?
Submitted by Haikosi on Wed, 04/02/2008 - 12:52.
I was wondering who is the best Go player in the world and how many stone difference are there between a 9p and a 1p? |
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very difficult question, the
very difficult question, the one about difference between 1p and 9p is much easier: it depends, in Korea, top inseis are very very strong (some say that stronger than most of Japanese pros), and remember how Lee Sedol was winning international tournaments with his rank being only 3p (probably he didnt really bother to get a better rank). Also note that in Japan about half of the professionals have 9p. So it is more about an individual player than about his rank.
To choose the best player (tm), I would vote for Lee ChangHo or Lee Sedol, they are definitely very good, but as I said before, it is difficult to say
I think that pro status is
I think that pro status is not good power ranking. Pro status is something like award. Some 9p from Japan said that they need 2-3 stone to play even game with Cho Chikun 9p
Who is #1?
I prefer Yi ChangHo .
There are many young and strong player who can beat even Yi ChnagHo like Choi Cheol Han, Yi SeDol from Korea, but they need more experience before they can overtake Yi.
I think time of single player is over. Now will be some strong player of equal level
Rank is a lifetime
Rank is a lifetime achievement. A professionals rank increases but never decreases. Rank is awarded differently in different countries. Up until last year for the previous number of decades, ranks in Japan were awarded based upon ones results in the Oteai (the ranking tournament, no komi games). Since last year the Oteai has been discontinued.
Ranks in China, Korean, and Japan are now based upon winning titles or other achievements deserving of note. Sometimes (all the time?) retirement from tournament play results in the award of one additional rank.
Strength varies all the time. You can see Chinese pro ratings /strength as of 2001 at http://senseis.xmp.net/?ChineseProRatingsEndOf2001
Another rating list is http://holigor.fcpages.com/baduk.htm which is described at http://senseis.xmp.net/?HoligorsRatingOfGoPlayers
So the answer might be Lee Chango Ho.
The above list is too old.
The above list is too old. Go4Go tracks the top Chinese players in the following page: http://www.go4go.net/english/article/top_chinese.jsp
I haven't decided where to put this and a couple of articles in the new site.
I've heard that the
I've heard that the difference is roughtly 1/3 stone per proffesional dan, yet it's hard to tell due the the abscence of an upper limit (all 9p are not of equal strength) and regional differeces.
I guess it might serve as a rough approximate though.
The strongest player is God,
The strongest player is God, a pro once said that he wouldn't bet his life in a game against God without a 4 stone handicap. Out of us mortals it's impossible to say whose the strongest because each player has his/her ups and downs and age plays a role in it. With so many good players now, even if a genius was to rise to the top and destroy everyone else, he/she would be challenged by another wave of young players and eventually be swept.
For the past 10 years Lee
For the past 10 years Lee Changho has been consistently on top, maybe now he's slacking a bit, or others have improved, but in the last Nongshim cup he won 5 games in a row to clinch the tournament for Korea.
I think he's still the best.
A round-robin with the top 10 world players would be really interesting ....
The theoretical distance between a 1p and 9p should be almost 3 stones, but the Oteai in Japan was an inflationary system and as a result it stoped beeing true in Japan. I don't know for China or Korea, but anyway it's difficult to get a good ranking system unless it reflects the ups and downs of players.
How does the chinese system work ? Is it something on the lines of the Elo system used in chess ? (or in the european rankings?)
I think the Japanese Go
I think the Japanese Go Association decided to ditch the oteai system. I know the Chinese system is numbers that are adjusted depending on how the player does in tournaments. It's probably closest to reflecting the ups and downs of a player. I think the Korean system of promotion is winning a number of tournament games or some sort of achievement in title games. Lee Changho is probably in a slump after losing the challenge for the Kuksu.
Yes, the Japanese did ditch
Yes, the Japanese did ditch the oteai, but could not reduce ranks already achieved, so there are still a lot of 9dans. The present rating system requires players to win a number of games in pro tournaments to promote to the next rank. The required number of wins increases as the rank goes higher. The preliminary tournament system was also improved to be more competetive.
The question is subjective
The question is subjective to who asnwers it. If you look at the number of international torunaments won, no doubt, Lee Changho is on the top. However, as many have said, he's facing tough competition from much younger players, such as Choi Cheolhan (the Kuksu results were shocking, and must have been devastating for him) and Gu Li.
If you knew nothing about professional Go tournaments, and only started seeing results of international tournaments recently (most notably the Fujitsu and LG Cup), you'd never guess Lee Changho is "World #1".
With many many losses in very recent international tournaments, Lee Changho isn't looking very good now. However, as it is known, you can't judge this just by looking at results over a short pewriod of time.
This also can't be judged through individual match-ups. For example, put Lee Changho up against someone he often loses to, take Rui Naiwei. So, the "World #1" constantly loses to Rui Naiwei, does this make Rui the world's top player? No. As such, it's impossible to judge.
Thus, I conclude that looking at results over a long period of time is most reliable, and as shown by them, Lee Changho is the best.
Then again, if you ask about preference, my answer is stil Lee Changho :)
I think consensus is that
I think consensus is that Lee Changho is still on top. However, I will put good money on Cho U, Choi Cheolhan, Gu Li, Lee Sedol or Park Younghoon taking the title of World Number One in time to come, if they have not already done so. All of these young players have done phenomenally well in the last couple of years.
These 6 players currently hold among themselves 25 major titles (both national and international). Frightening!!
Cho U (Meijin, Honinbo, Oza, NHK, NEC, LG, Asian TV)
Choi Cheolhan (Kuksu, Chunwon)
Gu Li (Mingren, Tianyuan, Xinren Wang/New Star, Tengen China-Korea, New Star China Korea)
Lee Changho (Wangwi, GS Caltex, KBS, Chunlan)
Lee Sedol (Maxim, Samsung, Toyota World Oza)
Park Younghoon (Kisung, BC Card/New Star, Fujitsu, Zhonghuan)
Among them, if to bet my
Among them, if to bet my money on a 5 or 7 games series, Gu Li will be the weakest link. Followed by Cho U, Choi Cheolhan, Park Younghoon, Lee Sedol, and Lee Changho.
Yes I am ranking them... :)
Like other sports, their strength are so close that win/loss in a single game can be almost 50/50 wash. And there are also factors like match-ups etc. But, there is still some subtle differences there. Lee Changho may be losing his focus every now and then these days, being on top this long. But, I don't think any other players at this moment feel their level of go have gone beyond "the one" yet.
looking at the games/matches
looking at the games/matches played between these 6 players since 2003,
we can rank them this way:
1)Lee Sedol
2)Gu Li
3)Lee Changho
4)Choi Cheolhan
5)Park Younghoon
6)Cho U
Lee Sedol has the best record against the other 5 players. His win loss record against Gu Li, Lee Changho, Choi Cheolhan and Park Younghoon seems to be positive.
Gu Li is ranked high using this metric because his recent victories over Choi Cheolhan and Park Younghoon in the China-Korea Tengen and China-Korea New Star respectively has tipped the balance in his favour. Gu Li also seems to do well against Cho U.
Lee Changho is very strong, but he has a really dismal record against Choi Cheolhan, who spent the last few years dispossessing Lee of his titles. He also has not fared very well against Lee Sedol in general.
Choi Cheolhan has a very good record against "the one", and generally seems to do well against Cho U too. He has beeen losing to Park lately, and lost the Kisung to him despite a close match. Gu Li also seems to defeat him quite consistently.
Park Younghoon would have a better score if his record against Lee Changho was not so poor. He hardly ever wins against "the one".
Cho U, despite his success in many tournaments, has not fared well against these other 5 players.
Note that this ranking is only looking at the RECENT games among these players and not with other professional players. It has nothing to do with their overall win percentage in games, or the long term record. Lee Changho has an amazing lifetime record that will be hard to top by any player.
Talk about their
Talk about their match-ups... it's more about their styles and area of strengths
"the one": his opening and style are mostly plain, simple, to a degree that is hard to be appreciated by amateurs. He would patiently await your mistakes/lesser moves, and he barely needs much of a crack to get a hold of your throat till the end.
To beat him, your best chance is to be a wild killer/fighter (and a very good one), that is there Choi and even Rye, came in with a good record against him.
Choi: beautiful go, very aggressive. Usually build a large margin by end game. Home run hitter though get strike out often, and he has problem again solid, point pincher (Park that is)
Park: solid all around, a counter puncher. Yet not enough "power" in his game, so slow death to "the one"
Lee Sedol: aggressive type. The thing about him is the bigger the stage gets, better yet he plays. You call that a big time player. That explains his record in big tournaments. But probably because he does whatever it takes at the moment to win, hard to find threads in his go.
Cho U: a younger version of Cho Chikun, not yet to Chikun's top level yet, but he is still young.
Gu Li: a good aggressive player. The reason I put him the weakest link is he is the opposite of Lee Sedol. The bigger the stage, the worse he plays... yes it is the mental thing.
This has been a very good
This has been a very good discussion. The only way to actually answer this question is to have access to a really comprehensive collection of recent go games, maybe for the last year or so, and run some numbers. However, I am satisfied that the player on top will be one of the players we have discussed. It really does not make sense to rank players based on our sense of the way they play without more robust evidence. As amateurs, what do we know?
As for the reason for the general korean style of play, sunjang baduk has often been given as a possible reason. Nothing like starting in the midgame to generate a whole nation of strong fighters.